Interesting Article About Fur (some Details), from Fox news Options

[In Theory]

Adrian by what you are saying it would stand that Bryce Dallas Howard will never receive an Oscar nod because of her participation in Manderlay.

Last winter I bought book called "Dogville vs Hollywood" by Jake Horsley. Subtitled: The war between independent film and mainstream movies.

It is the authors contention that Dogville was not anti-American but anti-Hollywood. There are only a couple of chapters that speak about Dogville specifically. In these the author gives his reasons for saying it is more specifically about Hollywood. The rest focuses on a number of directors and how the Hollywood machine effects independent movie makers.

[RedSatinDoll]

As usual, very well composed argument by the lovely Satine    But maybe missing my point just a bit; yes, it applies to lots of people and lots of countires and the way they treated the poorer and less fortunate, but the director's intentions were to make a film that is 100% critical to a specific country, even if he later made some interviews with a different tune to east things on Lions Gate who took the missiong of distributing it in America. The USA tells you about his intentions,and this is why Nicole is being marked for it.

If you saw Manerlay, you'll see how my take is substantiated, if there was some "maybe" in Dogville, Manderlay makes it clear and visible that it can't be anywhere but America, the unique history of Afrian slavery, the real life rules that governed their lives up to the late 1920s and if not anything, the lynching pictures in the end song too.  (Real lynching where a mob took two black people, cut off parts of their bodies then lynched and set them on fire!!)

The director's intent can't be missed, and intent is what they are marking the cast for. Wasn't it a hint that Nicole pulled out after the first part?

By the way, I'm trying to explain why I think this movie is hated, not that I agree with many of the stuff in it. Unlike the director I have read the history of nearly all the world and I know that injustice and unequality have been praciced everywhere and to degrees much worse than whatever he accuses america of doing!

Here is your Monday rose 

I'll admit I haven't seen Manderlay yet, adrian, so maybe I'll do so now that I'm home more. I can see your point. When I saw Dogville there was no Manderlay yet and the earlier interviews (about Danish policies and so forth) were still fresh in my head - tending to be more lucid, and less "on the offensive" than the Cannes interviews. (His talk about the film at Cannes reminded me of why an artist - regardless of the medium - should allow their work to speak for itself. It seemed to me at Cannes he was very defensive and at the same time almost surprised at the reaction to the film. That's trying to have it both ways - knowinging making a potentially challenging, provocative film that is sure to offend some people, and then tsk-tsking when viewers are challenged, provoked or offended.)

I don't quite understand your point about the USA theme and Nicole. She had wanted to work with von Trier, and certainly he (and his producers) knew that having Nicole in the lead would gain the film much more attention than it would have than any number of provocative, challenging films made in other countries that win a few awards and polite applause and unfairly disappear from sight. She's an international star - her involvement got the film international attention long before it was released. That's part of what having someone like Nicole does for a film. (The downside of that is that it's harder to stay secret and private and release a film that not too many people have heard of but has a chance to stand or fail entirely on its own merits, either critically or at the box office, and perhaps even become a "sleeper" hit.)

I recall von Trier provoked Nicole - it was on film at a press conference - into stating that she was going to do his next film. What could she do except say "You know I will?" That she pulled out may say less about the film itself (when has Nicole ever shied away from difficult material?) and, I suspect, more about her relation with the director and the treatment she received from his production company (snide comments were released about her to the newspapers from the head of the production company before she even signed on, abated a bit during production, and then resumed when she did not sign for Manderlay (which starred Bryce Howard, who IS American - the daughter of Ron Howard, of "Mayberry" and "Happy Days" fame, for goodness sake. You don't get any more apple-pie American than that. )

[RedSatinDoll]

Adrian by what you are saying it would stand that Bryce Dallas Howard will never receive an Oscar nod because of her participation in Manderlay. 

Last winter I bought book called "Dogville vs Hollywood" by Jake Horsley.  Subtitled: The war between independent film and mainstream movies.

It is the authors contention that Dogville was not anti-American but anti-Hollywood.  There are only a couple of chapters that speak about Dogville specifically.  In these the author gives his reasons for saying it is more specifically about Hollywood.  The rest focuses on a number of directors and how the Hollywood machine effects independent movie makers.

Interesting, In Theory; it sounds like a book I'd enjoy reading. For me, the thing about "art" (and it doesn't have to be "great" or "good" art whatever that means, it doesn't have to be flawless or universally loved or even liked) is that it leaves room for interpretation by whomever is experiencing it.

[adrian]

Adrian by what you are saying it would stand that Bryce Dallas Howard will never receive an Oscar nod because of her participation in Manderlay. 

I promise you she'll never Ont bit of well known trivia to prove my point, read this too Satine: all the black cast in this movie were British except for two because African American actors rejected the parts fearing the backlash in America (check it in IMDB Trivia)

I'll admit I haven't seen Manderlay yet, adrian, so maybe I'll do so now that I'm home more.  I can see your point.  When I saw Dogville there was no Manderlay yet and the earlier interviews (about Danish policies and so forth) were still fresh in my head -

Do watch it! But careful because they actually kill a poor donkey on the set , and there is a great deal of Graphic male and female nudity/sex in it. I know you fast forward these stuff

I don't quite understand your point about the USA theme and Nicole.  She had wanted to work with von Trier, and certainly he (and his producers) knew that

Yes she wanted, but it is very obvious that she regret this and pulled out of the project which lead to; a change of Grace (no director wants this, imagine if they'd got another lead to play Frodo in LOTR or replaced Keira in PiratesOTC 2), Manderlay was no where near Dogville quality and the third part "Washinton" is put on hold and there is a probability it will not be done.

The situation with Nicole is similar to that of Peter O'Toole's with "Caligula" (1979) or that of Christopher Lee with Jesus Franco's "Eugenie" (1970)! Both are big stars who were lured to participate in those two movies without really realizing what was going on, then later when they dicovered these were soft porn films they screamed their lungs out that they were fooled by the sneaky directors !! Nicole is still in limbo now but she WILL scream it some day

It seemed to me at Cannes he was very defensive and at the same time almost surprised at the reaction to the film

(edited out)

Now, I have mentioned examples from Cinema history and provided samples of similar arguments and trivia bits I bet you did not know. If all of this, and the fact that the trilogy is called "U.S.A. The land of opportunity" aren't enough to convince you he is an anti-american director, then I rest my case ! (Happy to rest it in front of lovely Satine, it's as good as getting beaten up by Nicole )

Oh, did you know that Dogville was #99 on IMDB all time top #250 until it was released in the USA, then american voters took it out in one of the fastest exits I've seen on IMDB since I went there in 1998-99 ??



This post has been edited by adrian: Oct 3 2006, 09:38 AM

[RedSatinDoll]

The situation with Nicole is similar to that of Peter O'Toole's with "Caligula" (1979) or that of Christopher Lee with Jesus Franco's "Eugenie" (1970)! Both are big stars who were lured to participate in those two movies without really realizing what was going on, then later when they dicovered these were soft porn films they screamed their lungs out that they were fooled by the sneaky directors !! Nicole is still in limbo now but she WILL scream it some day 
Ever seen a director playing dumb?

Adrian, love, before we get a scolding from Foxy, the goddess of all things Kidman - I think you and I have wandered into dangerous - and for this board - inappropriate territory. Please PM if you feel free, but I have a feeling that the discussion regarding Mr Gibson is especially out of bounds.

The comparison with Caligula is odd - whatever it's faults, Dogville is not pornography, and whether or not she ever works with von Trier again, it is not a film she need ever be ashamed of. (And its a risk that Nicole is certainly willing to take time and again, given that she often accepts projects long before there is a script, because she wants to work with certain directors.) And my impression was that you were praising Dogville for its strong stance - now to compare it to some rather unsavory films seems an insult to it.

And it has not been unheard of btw for sequels to have a different actor or actress playing the part than in the original, throughout cinema history. I can point to a recent example - Julianne Moore taking on the role of Clarice that Jodie Foster won an Oscar for in Silence of the Lambs, when Foster dropped out. (I believe Moore was displeased by the script and dropped out at the last minute, but that's hearsay or what I can recall from an interview with Anthony Hopkins.) Usually it is the actress who is considered more "replaceable" than the male actor in such situations.

This post has been edited by RedSatinDoll: Oct 3 2006, 09:20 AM

[adrian]

Adrian, love, before we get a scolding from Foxy, the goddess of all things Kidman - I think you and I have wandered into dangerous - and for this board - inappropriate territory.  Please PM if you feel free, but I have a feeling that the discussion regarding Mr Gibson is especially out of bounds.

The comparison with Caligula is odd - whatever it's faults, Dogville is not pornography, and whether or not she ever works with von Trier again, it is not a film she need ever be ashamed of.  (And its a risk that Nicole is certainly willing to take time and again, given that she often accepts projects long before there is a script, because she wants to work with certain directors.) And my impression was that you were praising Dogville for its strong stance - now to compare it to some rather unsavory films seems an insult to it.

And it has not been unheard of btw for sequels to have a different actor or actress playing the part than in the original, throughout cinema history.  I can point to a recent example - Julianne Moore taking on the role of Clarice that Jodie Foster won an Oscar for in Silence of the Lambs, when Foster dropped out.  (I believe Moore was displeased by the script and dropped out at the last minute, but that's hearsay or what I can recall from an interview with Anthony Hopkins.)  Usually it is the actress who is considered more "replaceable" than the male actor in such situations.

I took out the Mel Gibson criticism parts, you're right, we should not attack anyone here. Was just giving an example of previous directors who were "surprised"

Dogville is not pornography, I am giving examples of how big stars can do some movies without knowing the director's real intents.

I love Dogville! I'm a fair guy, can't just say a movie was bad because I disagree with the director's views! It's like how I disagree with Godfather's portrayal of crimes and criminals as something mystical and beautiful but I'd be a hypocrite to deny it was a masterfully made flick.

Of course it was done before, but I'm saying it never was a good thing; Hannibal was never on par with SOTL, not critically, not awards-wise and not even at the box office.

To sum it up, I hope she gets all the awards in the world, but she is marked since Dogville, a huge mark indeed that they rather give Paris Hilton an Oscar but not her

On the other hand expect lots and lots of European awards for her and Fur. Europen awards are still about art, not politics

This post has been edited by adrian: Oct 3 2006, 10:06 AM